The Dismantling Doctrine Podcast

This conversation features Rob Thain Smith — author of Four and Twenty Blackbirds: The Trial of Paul Petry, the Beginning of the End of Mars Hill Church. We discuss the rise and fall of Mars Hill Church in Seattle, led by controversial pastor Mark Driscoll. Rob shares his first-hand experience as a long-time member who was in the process of becoming an elder when the church's governance crisis began.
The central conflict we explore is the 2007 bylaw changes at Mars Hill that consolidated power away from a plurality of 24 elders and into Driscoll's hands. Rob recounts the controversial trial of elder Paul Petry, who was fired and put through a deeply flawed, unjust internal process for minor infractions — largely because he posed a threat to Driscoll's growing authority.
Rob argues that the real failure of Mars Hill was not Driscoll alone, but the 24 elders who, despite knowing the trial was wrong, unanimously voted against Petry out of fear and self-interest. The conversation also covers the church's culture of shunning, Driscoll's continued platform at his Arizona church Trinity, and Rob's motivation for writing the book — to offer a more nuanced, leadership-focused account than the widely listened-to Christianity Today podcast series about Mars Hill.
Follow this link for more information about Four and Twenty Blackbirds!
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This week’s episode features a conversation with Paule Patterson — a former pastor turned Christian mystic and recovering alcoholic — to trace the arc of his remarkable personal journey. 
Paule shares how his struggles with addiction, the collapse of his ministry in Missoula, Montana, and how multiple stints in rehab ultimately forced him to confront the deeper fractures in his faith, his identity, and his sense of self.
Rather than walking away from spirituality entirely, Paule found that sobriety, AA, psychology, and a voracious study of both scripture and philosophy led him toward a richer, more honest relationship with the divine. 
In the second half, our conversation broadens out into a wide-ranging discussion about the Western church's tendency to institutionalize and rigidify belief — from the Reformation to the present-day Christian nationalist movement in America. 
We draw on such diverse elements as church history, René Girard's mimetic theory, Taoism, Buddhist mindfulness, and the work of Richard Rohr to argue that Christianity was always meant to be a living, transformative path rather than a doctrinal checklist.  
Paule describes himself today as a Christian mystic, running a small business while quietly pursuing his passion project of helping others navigate deconstruction with intellectual honesty and spiritual openness. 
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In this episode, I speak with Beth Granger, author of Born and Razed: Surviving the Cult Was Only Half the Battle. Beth shares her extraordinary story of growing up as a staff kid inside Grenville Christian College in Brockville, Ontario — a boarding school secretly operating as a cult under the influence of the Community of Jesus, a commune based in Cape Cod.
She describes the psychological control, public shaming sessions, draconian discipline, and spy networks that defined life inside the institution, drawing striking parallels between cult tactics and the dynamics of modern political movements.
Our conversation also covers Beth's long journey toward healing after leaving at age 31, including her involvement in a landmark lawsuit that became the first historical abuse case to win at trial in Canada. She reflects on the layers of recovery that followed: therapy, writing her memoir, and the validating experience of having her story taken seriously in a court of law.
The episode closes with a discussion of how the Community of Jesus continues to operate today--now aligned with Christian nationalist ideology--and why Beth wrote her book: to sound the alarm about the lasting, sometimes irreparable damage that weaponized, high-control religion can inflict.
For more information on the book, check out Beth's site.
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In this week's episode, I chat with Morgan Piercy, a Licensed Professional Counselor based in Kansas. She specializes in helping adults deconstruct from evangelicalism and Christian nationalism through a neurodiversity-affirming lens.
Together we explore the clinical reality of Religious Trauma Syndrome (RTS) — why it goes far deeper than the commonly used term "church hurt" — and how patriarchal church structures, purity culture, and high-control theology can create lasting psychological harm.
We also draw on our personal experiences with religious deconstruction, sharing candid reflections on growing up in fundamentalist and charismatic traditions, the fear-based theology of hell and the rapture, and the complex journey toward reclaiming identity outside the church.
Morgan also discusses the therapeutic tools she uses with clients, including Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT), to help people reconnect with their authentic values after leaving high-control religious environments.
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In this week's episode, I finally had the chance to interview investigative journalist Gareth Gore about his book Opus: The Cult of Dark Money, Human Trafficking, and Right-Wing Conspiracy Within the Catholic Church. Gore explains how he stumbled onto the story while investigating the 2017 collapse of Spain's Banco Popular, only to discover the bank had been covertly controlled by Opus Dei for decades — serving as its primary financial engine and funneling hundreds of millions, possibly billions, of dollars into the organization worldwide.
Our conversation traces Opus Dei's origins in 1920s Spain under founder Josemaría Escrivá, its symbiotic relationship with the Franco regime, and its evolution into a secretive, elitist global network operating in 70 countries. Gore details how the organization targets society's elite — law students, politicians, judges — to advance a conservative Catholic agenda, including its deep ties to figures like Bill Barr, Leonard Leo, and the conservative takeover of the U.S. Supreme Court.
We also expose the darker side of Opus Dei: cult-like control over members, psychological abuse, and criminal charges filed in Argentina for the enslavement and human trafficking of women recruited as "assistant numeraries" to serve in Opus Dei centers around the world.
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I've finally had time to get this special episode out: another chapter reading from my 2024 book, Not So Shiny Not So Happy People: How Bill Gothard, Church, and Family Taught Me Christianity Doesn't Work, edited by Tim Sledge.
In this reading--Chapter 4--I pick up the story that follows immediately after my first baptism at the age of 10. My pastor had recommended I get baptized after I'd seen that terrifying, end-times apocalyptic movie A Thief in the Night in the 1970s. Afraid of being left behind in the event of the Rapture, I submitted to his spiritual authority, and went ahead and got baptized.
Since he'd informed me that baptism was the key to salvation, after this important milestone event, I figured I was finally on safe ground with the Almighty. No longer terrified and suffering from Rapture anxiety, I went on to the next key step I was told I needed for my spiritual development: reading the Bible and praying daily, which I struggled to do on a consistent basis.
I was also told by important people in my life that I needed to develop a love for God too, I tried mightily to do that also, but with very limited success.
Link to Not So Shiny Not So Happy People: How Bill Gothard, Church, and Family Taught Me Christianity Doesn't Work on Amazon!
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Just in time for the aftermath of the Christian nationalist-fuelled "Rededicate 250," I   welcome back Dr. Warren Throckmorton. We discuss his new book, The Christian Past That Wasn't: Debunking The Christian Nationalist Myths That Hijack History, which challenges the historical claims of Christian nationalism.
Dr. Throckmorton explains how Uganda's 2009 Anti-Homosexuality Bill — justified by its sponsors using the Bible and linked to "The Family" — sparked his journey toward strict church-state separationism. We then take aim at a number of these quasi-historical myths, such as the belief that America was founded as a Christian nation. Dr Throckmorton's rigorous historical research reveals that the Founders deliberately excluded religion from the Constitution, and that it is not in fact based on the Bible.
Dr. Throckmorton contends that today's Christian nationalism is less about history and more about political power, pointing to the Trump administration as a prime example of pro-Trump evangelical Christianity operating as a quasi-established religion. ​The question truly is: who benefits from promoting such mythology? ​ ​
Get access to the book at this link: The Christian Past That Wasn't
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This conversation features a return appearance by Dr. Terri Daniel of the Ask Dr. Death podcast. We discuss spiritual bypassing — a psychological phenomenon, originally coined by Buddhist teacher and psychotherapist John Welwood in the 1980s, which describes the use of spiritual or religious beliefs as a defense mechanism to avoid dealing with painful emotions, grief, trauma, and loss. Dr. Daniel draws from her academic research, as well as her experience as a hospice chaplain, offering case studies and clinical definitions to illuminate how people use religion to sidestep the hard work of emotional healing.
Out conversation is wide-ranging and candid, touching on the Hebrew Bible's "reward-and-punishment" theology, the Book of Job, cognitive dissonance in faith communities, and the concept of disenfranchised grief — the inability to mourn openly within a religious community when the deceased falls outside its moral framework.
We both share personal anecdotes, including Clint's recent retinal detachment surgery and Terri's job loss, as real-world examples of resilience without divine intervention. The episode closes with a plug for an upcoming online symposium on spiritual bypassing, scheduled for July 25th, featuring six presenters including grief counselors, a Buddhist teacher, and researchers in trauma and religious deconstruction.
Contact Terri at https://deathgriefandbelief.com/
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After speaking recently with Peter Bell for the last podcast, I'm bringing you a bonus episode: a conversation Sarah Bader, co-host of the Sons of Patriarchy podcast and a longtime Moscow, Idaho resident.
We talk about what everyday life is like under the influence of Pastor Doug Wilson and his Christ Church. Sarah shares how she joined Peter after a failed NPR project, and how growing up in Moscow since 1998 gave her a frontline view of how Doug Wilson has systematically built a religious and cultural empire in the town. The conversation covers Wilson's dominionist agenda, his ties to the American Redoubt movement, Christian nationalism, and his growing national influence through figures like "Secretary of War" Pete Hegseth.
The second half of the interview delves into specific scandals Wilson has survived, most notably the Steven Sitler child abuse case, where Wilson wrote letters of leniency to the court and later presided over Sitler's wedding despite his crimes.
We also discuss the cult-like hallmarks of Wilson's Christ "Kirk"--loaded language, self-ordained leadership, a self-contained publishing and education empire, and a culture of fear and bullying that has left local businesses, city officials, and even state institutions reluctant to challenge Wilson. Sarah reflects on the personal toll of living within 500 yards of Wilson's campus while fighting him publicly, expressing uncertainty about whether the battle is being won, but affirming her commitment to speaking out as long as she can.
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In this episode, I welcome Peter Bell from the Sons of Patriarchy podcast for a deep dive into the world of Doug Wilson. He's a self-ordained pastor from Moscow, Idaho who has spent decades building a network of Christian nationalist influence.
Together we trace Wilson's origins, his controversial "Southern Slavery As It Was" pamphlet, his founding of the CREC denomination and the Association of Classical Christian Schools (ACCS), and how his fringe ideas gradually moved into the mainstream — culminating in his recent sermon at the Pentagon.
The conversation then turns to Pete Hegseth, now U.S. Secretary of Defense (or War), and the web of connections linking him to Wilson's world through classical Christian education and the ACCS, Fox News, Christian nationalism, and the fringe CREC denomination.
Both of us, as seminary-trained theologians, share deep concern about a man with limited theological education wielding militaristic, crusader-inspired religious rhetoric--all the while overseeing the world's most powerful military engaged in an illegal war against Iran.
We argue that the through line--traced from R.J. Rushdoony's Christian Reconstructionism to Doug Wilson to Pete Hegseth--represents a genuinely dangerous convergence of weaponized theology, patriarchy, and political power.
For more information on Doug Wilson, check out this playlist of episodes I did on him a few years ago.
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Email: dismantlingdoctrine@gmail.com